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Back To Part One

Thundercat: Oh my god. Now, you’re serious? This actually happened?

Swinggcat: This actually happened. This is real. Well… by the way, I stole that tactic from him. It’s quite good, quite effective.

Thundercat: (Laughs)

Swinggcat: So anyways, we meet or whatever, and Ross, being the guru, takes the frame and he says that he thinks we should go over to the nearest Starbucks and sarge… I think it was the Starbucks on Wilshire.

So we all walk over to Wilshire and I go kind-of inside the coffee shop to see if there’s any “honey bunnies” as Ross calls it. Now, I got to admit, I was a little bit intimidated to approach girls in front of this guy. We definitely had no rapport. I mean, he talks about this Golden Bubble stuff, I don’t know if he was breaking rapport intentionally, but I did not feel that “Incredible Connection” with him.

So anyways, he was outside, he saw some girl out there, he started chatting her up, I come outside, and he tries to get me to talk to her. I’m kind-of weird about talking to a girl around him, so I try and get IN10SE to talk to her, and uh, basically, he says “No, I want YOU to talk to her Swingg.”

So I end up talking to the girl, drop her into a hypnotic trance, start fondling her breasts, and out of… kind-of in the periphery of my hearing, I hear Ross going “Thank God! Thou shall strike revenge upon the female race! SS IS real!”

And, you know, I thought “Ross is the master, he can do a lot better than me.” But I don’t think Ross had ever seen anything like it.

In that moment he realized that there was someone that could actually make his stuff work.

Thundercat: So you had his stamp of approval at that point?

Swinggcat: I had his stamp of approval, and at that point, he started building me up on the list as being this kind-of “super” SSer. As one of his top students, when in fact during that time, he really was becoming more of my student. He started incorporating many, you know, many of my ideas into his videos, into what he kind-of dubbed the “new model” of seduction.

Thundercat: Some would say the best teachers learn from their students.

Swinggcat: Very true.

Thundercat: Now, around this time when you were coming up in the ranks of SS, Ross was having a bit of a flame war with Mystery on Cliff’s List, right?

Swinggcat: That’s right.

Thundercat: And he actually put you and IN10SE up against Mystery and anyone of his choosing.

Swinggcat: That’s right.

Thundercat: Now, were you introduced to Mystery before that point? Or was that your introduction to Mystery Method?

Swinggcat: I don’t recall, we’re gonna have to look at the actual date of that. But this is before that recent post that he made about challenging me against Erik. This is a couple years ago. This is actually… maybe it was before he met Erik.

Thundercat: You mean Mystery .

Swinggcat: Well, his identity is already out there now, so it doesn’t matter.

Now, as I discovered later on, I’m gonna sort-of fast forward here, I became a big celeb after that, Ross built me up, I started becoming a star at his seminars, you know, it’s kind-of like a “Rocky” thing – rise to the top.

Fast forward, I think a big part of why I had success with his material is… he gave me something to say.

I’m a guy, you know, not the greatest looking guy in the world, but I’m not a bad looking guy. Good personality. I have confidence, which is a big part of my system. And the fact of the matter is he gave me something to say and he was the first one to introduce me to, having a sense of control over the interaction, you know?

Not fully controlling, but it was my first taste of what it was like to control a social interaction. And I think for those reasons, I did very well with his material.

As I found out later on, it wasn’t his material at all that was getting me the success with women, it was something else, and that something is what I’ve developed over the years.

Thundercat: So how did you start developing your own method?

Swinggcat: So, this is an interesting story, let me back up a bit. Before I moved back down to LA, I was still living in my college town, wasn’t going to school up there, but like a lot of kids, wanted to pretend I was in college for a longer time than I really was.

I met a guy who in this community goes by the name “Primoman.”

Primoman played a kind-of very pivotal role in my breakout into a whole new system of seduction. I met Primoman in the summer of 2001, through the EBSS Seduction Lair.

And Primoman was the guy who originally told me that there was a guy named Mystery who was great, there was a guy named David DeAngelo who was phenomenal -- although he wasn’t called David DeAngelo back then, he was called… I think it was “Hypnotize” spelled backwards.

Thundercat: Sisonpyh

Swinggcat: Sisonpyh. Yes, exactly.

Anyways, he told me about this guy, and about all these different guys, and everyone else in the EBSS thought this guy was full of shit.

But I told Primoman “You know what? I’ll try out your method. I’ll try out all this new stuff.”

So we went to a bar, and I started doing my hypnotic seduction stuff. And Primoman looked at me and he’s like (in a high pitched voice) “Swinggcat, you got to bust their balls. And you don’t want to talk about any of the deep stuff. You gotta be superficial, don’t be intellectual. Girls don’t like that in a bar, Mmm-hmmmm.”

Thundercat: (Laughs)

Swinggcat: And I was thinking “What was this guy up to?” But I decided I’ll give this clown a shot.

He wanted to try out this routine called the “Mr. Smooth.”

So there’s this chick, I think she was a law student, and I did some hypnotic seduction on her and had her in a nice little trance.

Then Primoman goes up to her and does this “Mr. Smooth” routine, and he basically says to her like (holding his hand out like a microphone in the high-pitched Primoman voice) “Hey, what is it like to be on my game show? Mmm-hmmmm.”

She looks at him like he’s dog shit, and then he says to her… and I guess he got this from a guy named Grand Master -- Grand Master’s ball-busting tactic. He looks at the girl, looks her up and down, and in his dolt-esque way, takes a deep breath and says “Mmmmm!”

Suddenly, he grabs her boobies, big bear-paw grab with both hands, and says “You’re an intelligent woman,” squeezing her boobs as he’s bobbing up and down, with his big, dumb, deer eyes, sucking in his lips, “Mmm-hmmmm.”

She completely turns white, like Casper the Ghost!

Oh, but he doesn’t stop there.

He grabs his… I don’t even want to say it… genitals, and says:

“I’m an intelligent man.”

At this point she goes to turn away from him, and he gets her leg and says “And we should have an intelligent conversation!” as he’s thrusting her back and forth, humping her like a horny Chiwawa. And she proceeds to slap him and get the two very large men she’s with to beat him up.

And it’s interesting, because in bars I think most guys, they kind-of want to dominate, or out-alpha other guys, but they don’t really want to fight. So these guys, they come up and they try to intimidate him, and he just antagonizes the guys more!

Well, I had to work stuff out to avoid a fight. And on our way out, he’s like “I really think we made progress with the Mr. Smooth stuff. Mmm-hmmmm. This is so much more effective than anything else. YAH!”

So, basically, I thought all the stuff that he was talking about was garbage, but I went out with him several times, had to defend him in a couple fights, but I noticed even though I had better pick ups or what have you, there was something slightly different about what he was doing.

For whatever reason, the girls he approached were trying to get rapport with him. They were chasing him, and I couldn’t quite figure out why that was.

But then I was reading through some posts one day, and there was a guy on there named Zvi.

Zvi was posting a bunch of stuff very similar to what Primo was doing.

I read it, and I was like “Hmmm. There’s really something to what he’s doing.” He wasn’t trying to get rapport with girls, in fact, he would miss-match them. He would actually break rapport with them on purpose and he would mercilessly tease girls, and he wouldn’t pattern them.

In fact, sometimes he wouldn’t even talk that much. He’d kind-of make the girl talk.

And he wouldn’t ask her questions. The girl ended up kind-of qualifying herself, and there was something to these posts. And, you know, about a day after that, certain people on the list end up flaming Zvi, saying that he’s full of shit, and all this stuff, and everything that he was doing comes from a guy named “Hypnotize backwards.”

Thundercat: Sisonpyh.

Swinggcat: We’ll just call him Sisonpyh. And the flamers went on to say that Sisonpyh got all this stuff from a guy named “Rick H.” And that it’s good for a certain sort of girl, but this just won’t work on women.

Well, like I’ve always been since I was a little kid, when someone tells me “Don’t do something,” I want to do it. I want to find out more about it.

So I got introduced to this thing called Cliff’s List, and I noticed this Sisonpyh guy had been posting all of this stuff on there.

It wasn’t “trying to get rapport with them,” it wasn’t “eliciting values,” it wasn’t “asking questions,” and I experimented with it and got results tantamount to Primoman’s. You know, got some drinks in my face, you know, didn’t get beat up, but pretty close a couple times.

And then one day I was trying some of his tactics out on this 325 lbs. black woman, and it’s like the more I teased her, the more I ignored her… the more she would try and touch me.

I realized there was something I was doing there. I wasn’t getting rapport with her, I wasn’t trying -- in fact, I was doing the opposite. By not attracting her, she kind-of became attracted.

At that point I realized there was something fundamentally wrong about the underlying meaning of the interaction that I was setting with women.

So anyways, fast forward, I moved down to LA, and in the back of my mind I knew about this ball-busting stuff. Around this time, that Mystery guy that Primoman told me about started giving these workshops. He gave a workshop in Los Angeles, and I had thought about the idea of maybe taking the workshop, but I didn’t.

After that, there was a guy by the name of “Chris Powles,” who later became Style, wrote a rave review about the seminar. I wanted to see what the big hoop-la was, so I e-mailed him.

We hooked up and we went out to a party, and after that we went to some bar, and Chris Powles’ whole spiel was he’d do these magic tricks. And I wasn’t very impressed, this guy wasn’t very good, um, later on of course he became great, but he was the one who introduced me to Mystery.

About a month after that, he introduced me to a guy named Sindrome, aka Sin. Sin was this little, pale, goth kid who looked like Eddy Munster on LSD. He had a real high-pitched, nasal voice. And my first introduction to him was, I went to go meet Chris Powels, Style, at this party, and I walk in, and this little kid, Sindrome, has all these people sitting around him listening to his stories, courting all this attention.

And I realize “This is a powerful guy. This is a guy with a STRONG reality. This is a guy that I want to get to know.”
So we hung out, and although I wasn’t impressed with his seduction skills, I was impressed with how well he could court attention.

I was also impressed with how he could easily talk to tons of chicks and get great reactions. And I realized that he was doing something that I hadn’t learned before. I started picking up on that there was something terribly wrong with what I was doing. I was considered one of the best at seducing women, and when it came to walk-ups, you know, I had great seductions that would go well, but half the time it wouldn’t go well.

This guy was doing something different.

He didn’t use NLP, but he still was triggering attraction within women, and he wasn’t doing it by seducing either. He was doing something else.

He had a strong reality, and he was somehow sucking people into that reality. Once I realized what he was doing, once I broke it down and analyzed it… it changed the way I approached my interactions with people.

From then on, you know, I was a changed man… I learned a new way of approaching women and how to suck them into my reality… very different than what I was doing before, you know.

This was the embarking upon of my journey to amazing success, far beyond the days of just getting number closes and just getting kiss closes. This planted the seed for the method I developed that lets me live the lifestyle I live today… this kind-of pleasure filled Caligula-like lifestyle... I mean, I used to be the one who could molest girls within five minutes of meeting them, you know?

But now I have tools where THEY are trying to molest me, and that is so much more powerful.

Because when you turn the tables like that, you nurture an interaction where the girl doesn’t have second thoughts and doesn’t get creeped out. In fact, they see it as their idea, and I’m the thing that needs to be pursued.

I know by going for the kiss and then pulling back I am making them reach for more… often times so much more that they are trying to make-out me, and this is maybe within the first ten to fifteen minutes of the interaction.

And this isn’t about hypnotizing girls, it’s so fucking different… it’s like once you get it, it can’t get any easier. But at the end of the day, it all comes down to creating the type of reality where it’s normal for the girls to do this. And that’s something I’ve been thinking about lately, and that is “What is reality anyways?” And I think reality comes down to 3 things…

Thundercat: So what exactly is your definition of “reality?”

Swinggcat: Reality comes down to sucking people into your story -- this is your life, your story.

It comes down to you being the one that defines the underlying meaning of the interaction -- meaning, you’re the one who decides how they see things. And the 3rd thing is, things are on YOUR terms. When it’s your reality, people do things on your terms. And so, let’s get back to the first one, which is that this is YOUR story.

Before, I was asking girls lots of questions, I was trying to elicit values, and what I didn’t realize is that I was trying to get rapport with them, and in the process, they were sucking me into their reality. It was their story, it was their life, I was a character in THEIR story.

And when you allow someone to do that, when you enter a person’s reality like that, one of the consequences that ensues is that you end up doing things on their terms.

What I’ve learned to do is ask less questions. I let them elicit MY values. It’s all about ME sucking them into MY life’s story. They get to come along for the ride, but I’m the star of my movie. I’m not in THEIR movie, their in MY movie. And for that reason, they end up doing things on MY terms.

Rapport is a funny word. In this context, when I make it about me, when I make it about my story and my life, it forces them to relate to me. I throw stuff out there, “This is what I like to do.” It forces them to kind-of say “I like that too.” And that’s a really big part of what I do – sucking people into my reality.

Thundercat: And the second part?

Swinggcat: So the second part is, defining the underlying meaning of the interaction.

What most guys do in typical “dating” or “courting” of women, is imploring. They’re trying to win the woman over, they’re trying to get her approval.

If they’re impressive, if they show that they’re valuable, if they’re really nice to her, the woman will accept them, and they’ll ultimately get the woman.

And one thing I learned a long time ago is that within that frame, that underlying meaning, it’s really difficult to win over a woman. I mean, you’ve been there before Thundy.

Thundercat: Oh yeah.

Swinggcat: It’s like, so tough, you know?

Thundercat: Yeah.

Swinggcat: And you know, this seduction stuff is great. You’re not spending a lot of money on girls anymore, you got these great routines, these great stories, and you’re eliciting their values and making them feel all these great feelings, but at the end of the day, you’re still trying to win the woman over. You’re trying to get her attracted to you. And it’s interesting, because – I’m not gonna mention her name, but the exotic dancer we both know…

Thundercat: Oh yeah. Her.

Swinggcat: When we were talking to her the other night, she said some really sage words. Which were -- she’s attracted to guys who don’t try and trigger those attraction signals.

She’s attracted to men to whom it doesn’t really matter.

And the men who try and trigger those attraction signals, she isn’t attracted to. And I think that’s right. I think what we have to realize is that attraction is less about how a woman judges you, meaning trying to do all these things so she calls us an attractive person, and more about how we define the underlying meaning of the interaction.

It’s more about what you do with her mind and body. It’s more about getting her so emotionally charged that she is compelled to chase you.

She just has to… she’s compelled.

When you are trying to win her over, when you are imploring, she is getting YOU to do stuff. She is doing something to YOUR mind and body, YOU’RE becoming attracted to HER. So doing all this stuff, all this courting stuff, you know, is really good for making yourself attracted to the girl. But it doesn’t do much to actually get the girl attracted to you.

And so guys ask “How do you get the girl attracted to you?”

The answer is: You have to give up that mindset all together. You gotta think of it in terms of “It doesn’t really matter.” You’re gonna do stuff on your terms, and you’re gonna make her prove to you that she’s attractive. That will ultimately get women attracted to you.

But you can’t even think about it in terms of trying to get them attracted to you, or you’re back in the old way of thinking.

Thundercat: It’s like a Catch-22.

Swinggcat: It is. It really is.

Thundercat: Every system has its drawbacks.

Swinggcat: That’s right. I mean, it reminds me of Adam the Natural. You know, to Adam the Natural, it doesn’t really matter. If a girl doesn’t impress him “Buh-bye!”

I mean, the thing about it is, we’ve talked about this before, he loses a lot of girls. And it’s like “Oh, if he was a LITTLE bit more interesting, a little bit more interested in her, he’d get so many more girls.” But then he’d cease to be in that frame. He’d cease to define the whole interaction in that way. It works because he truly doesn’t care.

There’s a Zen to it, there really is. So that’s terribly important.

But the other thing is to always be conscious of where you are in the interaction and how it’s being defined, because the reality is women WILL test us. Women test us all the time. Or they do things to kind-of get control of the interaction, and what I mean is they try and define the underlying meaning of the interaction as YOU chasing THEM.

And, often times we do a lot of great stuff when we really aren’t into a girl, and they start chasing us.

For instance, maybe you’re in a bar, and you’re teasing this girl, you’re giving her a hard time, she’s chasing you… and then she says to you “Oh, we could never get together because I have a boyfriend.” And she might be saying this for numerous reasons, but it’s a test.

All a test is, is a behavior that she does, in which you react to it, and she judges your reaction to it.

Whenever she’s judging you in any way, it’s a test.

She might do so inadvertently. Maybe she’s scared, and she says “I have a boyfriend,” because she’s just so attracted to you.

Thundercat: (Laughs)

Swinggcat: But the fact of the matter is, she says “I have a boyfriend,” she just says it out of nowhere, right? You’re slammed dead in your tracks, and you say to her something like “I’m better than him,” or “I’m funnier than him.” And you start qualifying yourself to her. You start trying to prove to her that you’re worthy.

Now who’s chasing who?

You’re chasing her and she’s going to judge that because she wants a man who’s the prize. When she’s the prize, you cease to be the prize.

So, is the right way to respond to it is not to qualify yourself at all?

Some people might even say “Say Nothing.”

I think both are wrong.

I think there’s another way of thinking. And what I think what you can do, is you can reframe, or redefine the underlying meaning of what she just said.

So she says “I have a boyfriend,” and that’s a barrier. That’s a barrier that’s in the way of you getting into her pants, it’s saying you want her, and you can redefine it as a benefit, as something where she’s trying to prove how worthy she is to you.

She says something like “I have a boyfriend,” and you say “Good. He can bring us breakfast in the morning. And the orange juice he brings us better be fresh or he’s getting clubbed.”

Thundercat: (Laughter)

Swinggcat: And it’s like, right there, you’ve just totally changed the interaction. It’s just absolutely transformed. I mean, not only are you the prize and she’s chasing you trying to impress you, but if she really did have a boyfriend, you just made him a complete tool. (Laughs) He works for you, now.

Thundercat: Oh, that’s so evil! So evil.

Swinggcat: But women do this to us allllllll the time. I mean, you know, it’s like a godsend when a guy FINALLY gets something right, and he’s on the right track, and then women will say something and the guy will fuck it all up. So we’re only really using their medicine back on them.

Thundercat: In fact, you say a lot of the stuff you develop actually comes from your interactions with women, right?

Swinggcat: It comes from women, and whereas most men who think, I don’t know, if someone did this to them, it would be evil. But when you do it to women, they interpret it as “playful banter.”

Whenever you set up, and I’m just going to reiterate this one more time, whenever you set up the underlying meaning of the interaction as you are the prize, that forces them to do things on your terms. That forces them to do stuff to ultimately get your approval, to chase you, and when they’re chasing you, you’re doing something to their mind and body, in other words, they’re displaying attraction. And if they display the behaviors of attraction, they are, in fact, ATTRACTED to you.

They might justify it in their minds a million different ways.

In fact they might look at you and say “Oh, you’re not the sort of guy I’m attracted to.”

By the way, that’s another shit test, but the reality is the more you’re not the type of guy they’re attracted to, the more they chase you. The more you’ve got them. The more the attraction is there.

And that’s really the first stage in this whole process. I mean, the next stage that I think is important is that you have to make them comfortable acting on these feelings.

Thundercat: And how do you do that?

Swinggcat: That’s an interesting thing, and it’s something that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately.

I think when you set yourself up as being the prize, the one who’s chased in the interaction, you’re making yourself a bit superior to the girl. And that’s great, that’s really good. But a lot of times that can be a bit intimidating for a girl.

If you look at a lot of times who women choose for long term lovers, or boyfriends, it’s interesting because sometimes those guys are not very attractive. Why do women pick those guys?

Because they feel comfortable with them.

They feel comfortable with the idea of walking all over them. Most women are insecure, and they need to do that.

On the other hand a lot of times they have affairs with the guy they have that unbridled passion for, the guys who are the prize, that make the woman chase them. So you need to find a happy medium. You need to be that guy that they chase, but you also want to do things that make them feel comfortable, and what you want to do is if you’re in the superior position, and I’m not gonna get too into this, but you want to do something that slightly lowers yourself to the girl.

You want to, even if it’s in a subtle way, give her some form of validation. And this doesn’t mean “Oh my God, you are SO beautiful!” or something like that.

I mean, something as simple as asking a girl what a certain word means, or sometimes if a girl is really intimidated by my intellect, I might I might say something like “You’re very, very bright.” And then change the subject, and then tease her about maybe not remembering something.

So I’m giving her a taste of that validation and rising her maybe a little above me for a second, and then I’m switching it around. And even if I reverse it again and go back to the guy she’s chasing, it recontextualizes the whole interaction between her and I, and ultimately it makes her comfortable with the idea of having sex with me. And that’s all I have to do.

Thundercat: Now, let me touch on something of yours which I find fascinating, which is the concept of “tension loops.” In you’re book, you talk about “open loops.” But in your recent newsletters, you’ve kind of amended that to cover tension loops. Can you explain the difference between the two and how you made that transition?

Swinggcat: Well, it’s interesting. Back when I was studying NLP and Hypnosis, they had this concept of an “open loop.” And an open loop is simply an untold story.

It’s like, if you see a movie and they don’t tell you something, you have to see the sequel to see what happened -- that’s an open loop.

I would tell girls “Oh, I noticed something about you, but I’m not going to tell you yet, because first I’m going to tell you something else.” And then later in the conversation they come back to it. It was extremely powerful.

These open loops are what really saved my ass in bars, because doing bars can be rough, especially when you’re first starting out and you’re approaching these girls, and it’s like if you don’t captivate them within the first couple seconds, they’re just like, you know, “Later LOSER!”

Thundercat: Yeah, they’re looking for the next shiny thing as, you know, TD says.

Swinggcat: But regardless, we’re talking about the concept of open loops. I mean, it can be tough when you’re in a bar, and if you don’t intrigue a girl within a couple seconds, she’s onto the guy behind you.

So, I mean, the great thing about an open loop is, you talk about something, she might be interested, and before her interest in you plummets, you say something like “Oh, I know something about you.”

And she says “What?”

And you say “Oh, nothing. I’ll tell you later.” And she’s wondering what it is.

And by you not telling her, instead of you trying to tell her a bunch of stuff hoping that she’ll be impressed by, by you NOT telling her, her interest actually grows. She wants to know what it is.

And she begins to go from you trying to impress her, to her trying to chase you because you have something of value to her. So that’s when I first started using the whole concept of the open loops.

But over time, I realized there was a more all encompassing or fundamental psychological concept going on there. It wasn’t that I didn’t tell them something that actually drove them to want to know what it was, it’s that I left something unresolved.

And not only could I do this with unfinished stories, but I could do it with… for instance telling a girl something like “I hate you.” And since as human beings, we have an instinct to want people to like us, they have this kind-of internal yearning to absolve that tension.

And this would actually cause them to try and get resolution with me. And the more that I resisted, the more they would try.

I started thinking about this, and I noticed as I started building tension within these girls, I started getting them chasing me.

Now, at first I would do stuff like tell a girl I hated her, and they would try and make friends with me, but I wouldn’t make friends with them. And usually they’d get pretty angry, and, you know, that’d kind-of be the end.

But what I realized is there was something going on there, even though I was fucking up, I was doing something really interesting, and it was similar to when you watch a movie, or there’s a show on TV, and maybe you’re watching a soap opera and there’s two characters that have this tension between them. There’s like this war going between those two characters, and you want to see the next episode, not just because you’re curious about what happens, but you want there to be some resolution to it.

Emotionally, you need some sort of resolution.

Thundercat: Its kind-of like that show “Moonlighting.”

Swinggcat: Yeah, exactly. And what I did ultimately is thought about that. I thought about it long and hard, and started creating that tension like I would before, saying something like “I hate you.” But then what I would do is at the point where the rubber band was just about to break, I’d bring some sort of resolution to it.

I might say something like “I hate you.” And she’s thinking “Oh my god, this guy is such an ass hole!” But then I’d say something like “You know, the reason I hate you is because when I was in grammar school, there was a girl, Miranda, who used to always beat me at hot hands. And you remind me of her. And you just make that jealousy inside of me just rage. So I want to see something… I want to see how you are at hot hands.”

And so then basically I’d beat them at the game, and then I’d say “You know what? I like you now” then give them a hug. And so that would bring resolution to what I said before, and because I was pushing them away, and the human kind-of instinct is to make friends, that would actually bring them very close to me, because I would bring resolution to the tension.

But I wouldn’t stop there.

I would create the tension all over again by saying “You know what? Now I like you, because… you really stink at hot hands.” And then maybe go from hugging them to pushing them away from me. And build that tension back up, and bring resolution to it. Build it up, bring resolution to it.

What I’m doing by kind-of building this tension and pushing them away from me, is psychically, when you push someone away, they begin to lean into you. And what that does is it displays the behavior of me being the prize, and them trying to chase me.

Thundercat: What do you think is something most guys mess up on that might not normally come to mind?

Swinggcat: I think at the end of the day, it comes down to validation. Most guys are picking up girls not for the pure act of sex -- they’d just go to prostitutes if that’s just what they wanted. Most guys, at a certain point in the interaction, are trying to get the woman’s validation.

In fact, even if they are just trying to get sex, there’s this kind-of misconception in our culture that if you win a woman’s validation, if she judges you as an attractive person, she’ll sleep with you because she’ll be attracted to you.

But that’s not what attraction is.

Attraction is not how a woman judges you. Attraction is what you do to her mind and body, whether she knows it or not, if you do certain things to her mind and body, if you bring her into your reality and make her do things on your terms, she is attracted to you indeed.

And, you know, if I was to give one thing to guys, it is “Be the prize.”

Thundercat: What does that mean? To “be the prize?”

Swinggcat: I mean, you can believe you’re the prize, but if you’re still trying to convince a girl that you’re the prize, you’re gonna get absolutely nowhere with her.

What I’m talking about is something fundamentally different, and that is literally creating yourself as the prize. Not an internal belief, but an external dynamic of the interaction with a woman. You are defining the underlying meaning of the interaction as you being the prize, making her chase you.

Thundercat: Let’s talk about your book for a second.

Swinggcat: Okay.

Thundercat: What inspired you to write your own book on this subject?

Swinggcat: I wrote this book because, to be quite frank with you, most of the material out there, absolutely, stinks. And I wrote this book because I think this is something that a lot of guys struggle with. I mean, let’s be honest here. Guys are always going to be trying to get laid more. Its kind-of been the predicament since the beginning of man. We’re all trying to get more poontang.

Thundercat: Except now we can’t club them over the head and drag them back to our cave.

Swinggcat: Well, we can. That’s in my next book.

Thundercat: (laughter)

Swinggcat: So the reason I put this body of knowledge together is through basically trial and error, and obsession.

I think most of us guys who are involved in this are pretty obsessive-compulsive, and through trial and error, I figured a lot of stuff out. And it was fundamentally very different than a lot of other products out there, and I think that I really noticed something that a lot of other guys putting products out there kind-of… maybe they know about but they never really addressed, but what I did notice was this fundamental thing that I was doing was something that a lot of naturals do.

A lot of naturals are very good at getting the girl to chase them. They don’t know what they’re doing a lot of times, but that’s because they don’t really give a shit… that’s the good part of being an ass hole.

The good part of being an ass hole is really not caring about what the girl thinks and getting her to chase you. And I really think my book is the first body of knowledge that really teaches guys how to do this in an extremely in depth way.

And because I have such a deep understanding of it, and because it wasn’t out there, I felt that I was almost obligated to put this book together and offer it to other guys.

Thundercat: Now, you call your book “Real World Seduction.” Explain the reasoning behind picking that name as opposed to something like “Super fast Pick-Up happy quick magic,” or something of the equivalent.

Swinggcat: Well, the reason is at the end of the day, we can sit around and argue about what the semantics of what seduction is, but when it comes down to it, seduction is basically the process of going from meeting a woman to sleeping with her.

We can exclude paying for her, and we can exclude forms of rape. Regardless, there’s many different ways to go about it, but that very process is what I’m calling “seduction.” So, seduction is what I think is the process of what we do.

The reason I call it “Real World” is because this isn’t just a bunch of theory. I’m not going to get into fancy academic stuff, or what have you. This is my real life experience. I am a real life, real world seducer.

Although certain other people inspired me, the stuff that I came up with is just from my experience. And I think that’s fundamentally different than a lot of the stuff out there.

I mean, I think a lot of the stuff should be called “Lazy Armchair Seduction,” or “Real Computer Seduction,” or something like that. Most of these guys aren’t out in the field, so to speak.

You know, I’m interacting with real women on a constant basis, and I think that’s what’s fundamentally different.

It’s interesting, Robert Greene has a book called “Art of Seduction” where he talks about all these different things, all these different examples, and the book is quite good, because in my experience, a lot of that stuff is right on.

Now, interestingly enough, I know a lot of guys who don’t find his stuff practical. That tells me they aren’t out in the field, because that book exemplifies exactly what the process of seduction is, and what the process of attraction is. There’s many ways to go about it, but attraction is, at the end of the day, what you do to a woman’s mind and body. Not how you get her to judge you.

Thundercat: How would you compare your book to some of the other stuff on the market out there?

Swinggcat: The main thing my book is going to teach you how to do is, when it comes down to it, we all have some sort of need, or validation, and possibly even insecurity for having control over certain social interactions.

We’ve all been there before where it’s like, even if we get laid haphazard, we’ve been in situations where we just don’t feel like we have control over the situation. We can’t direct where it goes.

In my book, I’ve really broken it down to a science. It is so easy to control the interaction once you’ve read my book.

Thundercat: One of the things I like about your book is you actually have homework assignments. I don’t know of many other product that does that, and the products out there that do, in fact, do it, it’s not like “serious” homework.

Swinggcat: Well, thank you.

Thundercat: I know it’s helped me a lot.

Swinggcat: Awesome. I get e-mails from guys all the time saying my book changed their life.

Thundercat: Exactly. I mean, we’ve been out before, and you’ve seen how I progressed.

Swinggcat: You’ve made huge, huge improvements. I mean, you’re amazing.

Thundercat: Thanks, man. But getting back to you…

Swinggcat: Okay. Now that our “hug” is over.

Thundercat: (Laughs) That’s right, nobody want’s to hear about me. What’s in the future for Swinggcat? What are you looking forward to doing?

Swinggcat: I’m working on quite a bit of stuff, and one of the things I’m interested in is teaching guys how to master socializing, because it’s beyond just issues with women and stuff like that. There’s a ton of material that I haven’t even talked about that I’ve been working on that will give you power in business, in social situations, and there’s a lot of products I’m going to develop online.

Thundercat: Well, that begs the question everyone really wants to know. Are you going to do seminars?

Swinggcat: Still undecided if I’m going to do seminars or not.

Thundercat: Does it depend on the kind of interest that’s out there?

Swinggcat: Oh, the interest is there. The question is if I want to go in that direction or not. But there’s all sorts of stuff in the works. And possibly even in-field workshops, though it would be something that would kind-of crack the paradigm of what is currently available. It would be something very different.

But it’s going to be absolutely life changing, no matter what it is.

Thundercat: Nice. Well, Swinggcat, thanks a lot for doing the interview.

Swinggcat: Alright. We’ll talk again soon.

Well, there you have it folks. My big interview with Swinggcat! You can contact Swinggcat directly via e-mail at, and buy his book Real World Seduction, here.

Related: Joseph Matthews aka Thundercat's articles can be found here. He has an entire book that teaches approaching women and also a book for seducing strippers.