Seduction Secrets From A Real Seducer
In November of 2003, Swinggcat surprised the seduction community with the release of his book “Real World Seduction.” Famous in the Hypnosis/NLP community, respected by some of the best pick-up artists world wide, but relatively unknown to the general populous, Swinggcat quickly joined the ranks of gurus such as David DeAngelo with the amazing debut of his eBook, Real World Seduction, which took a new look at the way Seduction and Attraction can be accomplished.
But even with the massive popularity of his book, he’s been elusive. Drawing away from posting on mASF, the SS List, Cliff’s List, and even Mystery’s Lounge, Swinggcat has become a reclusive figure in the seduction community, preferring to let his work speak for itself.
Now, in this exclusive interview, Swinggcat breaks his silence and talks about his background, his development, his theories on seduction and attraction, and what he’s planning for the future.
It should be noted that this is a transcribed text of my conversation, and has been edited by me to make it read better.
Thundercat: Thanks for being with me today Swinggcat.
Swinggcat: Oh, no problem Thundercat. You want me to call you “Thunder” for short?
Thundercat: (Laughter) Only if I can call you “Swingg.” Alright man, why don’t you give us some background on who you are and how you got into this whole “seduction” thing.
Swinggcat: How did I get into this? Oh man, where to begin…
Well, I guess it began when I was in high school… you know, when I was in junior high school, I was a total nerd — REALLY awkward and shy around girls. So, the summer going into 9th grade, my daily routine was waking up, going to the bookstore, reading self-help book after self-help book on confidence and dating… though I wouldn’t BUY any of these books, mind you, I’d just sit in the store and read them… too cheap, you know?
Anyway, along with that, I’d spend my time perusing teeny bopper magazines for trendy styles, and practice picking up girls at the mall. It really became an obsession for me, you know, like a part of my life I felt driven to control. This really transformed me.
By the time school started I felt like I was a new man -- definitely not the stud of my high school, you know, but I was getting laid. In fact, by the end of eleventh grade I was voted biggest flirt… so I must have been moving in the right erection…I mean direction (laughs). Excuse me.
Thundercat: (Laughs) That’s okay, I know old habits die hard. Certain thoughts can just come from “blow me.”
Swinggcat: (Laughs) Oh, how forward of you!
Thundercat: Okay, getting back on topic, you seem like a guy who was already pretty good with women before you even got into this stuff… am I right?
Swinggcat: I was a guy who, you know, got laid. Not as much as I would have liked to have gotten laid or by the type of girls I would have liked to lay –
Thundercat: Well, none of us can get laid as much as we like.
Swinggcat: Yes, unless you’re Perry Ferrell or something.
Thundercat: (Laughter) Or Style.
Swinggcat: Ugh! I hate that bastard… he has a better ass than me! (Laughs)
Thundercat: Anyway, go on.
Swinggcat: And so… where was I? You totally messed me up.
Thundercat: I forget. Somehow the thought of Style’s ass has erased my memory.
Thundercat: Some would say you rely a lot on your looks as part of your skill.
Swinggcat: Yes, exactly.
Thundercat: How do you respond to that?
Swinggcat: Well, it depends on how you look at it. My looks – I was in college at the time, I went to college up north, San Francisco Bay area, and my looks got a lot of attention… from men.
Swinggcat: There was this one time that I was in LA, I think it was for Spring Break during college, and a buddy of mine took me to Skybar, and the whole night – no luck with women whatsoever. Just crashing and burning. It was before I got into this stuff… and there was this guy that came over and he complimented me on my shirt. You know, compliment intro.
Swinggcat: Worked great. He invited me to this after-party, and I went to the after-party, and there are all these girls there. Of course, I struck out left and right. And at the end of the night, he said him and his buddy needed to talk to me for a second.
So they took me into this room, and basically said “Oh, you are so charming, and so hot, and we would love to hook up with you.” And at that moment, I realized, my looks… were a curse.
Swinggcat: Not a blessing!
Thundercat: I noticed you do get approached by guys a lot.
Swinggcat: I do, I do, I do.
Thundercat: Guys, or really ugly bisexual women.
Swinggcat: I know (laughs). Well, the Tranny’s love me. I guess because I’m cute, little, and cuddly.
Thundercat: But the truth is you don’t really need to be good looking to be good with women. At least, that’s what I tell myself to keep from crying.
Swinggcat: Well no… I think – I mean, at the end of the day, it is important to be good looking. But one does not have to be conventionally good looking, you know what I mean?
Thundercat: Enlighten me.
Swinggcat: Well, for example, most of the world’s top pick up artists are not exactly what the general female populace would call “good looking.” There is, you know, Mystery , who is tall but has a long Pinocchioesque looking snout. Then there are guys like Style, Tyler Durden , Rick H., David D and myself, who look like little hobbits.
I doubt if a woman saw a picture of us all together she would think we looked like shinning examples of genetic perfection. More likely she would think it was something like a group photo taken from a Lord of the Rings reunion party or a picture of the cast for an upcoming Adams family movie… I don’t know.
But irrefutably, she would not mistake the photo of us as being a page out of an Abercrombie catalogue.
Thundercat: So, high fantasy aside, what are you saying here? Are you saying that if we’re not good looking, we’re fucked? How can a man be good looking if he is not conventionally good looking?
Swinggcat: What I’m talking about here… okay, the kind of good looking that I am talking about has more to do with being “sexy” than being “good looking.”
Let me ask you a question: Have you ever seen a picture of two women, one of which you found to be more attractive, but when you met them in person you found the other one to be more attractive?
Thundercat: No, but I understand what you’re saying.
Swinggcat: Well, regardless, the reason for this is that a person’s body language, facial expression, personality, and beliefs about themselves dramatically affect how attractive others find them.
Think of the body as a musical instrument.
An amateur musician playing something on a really fancy musical instrument is still not going to sound as good as a professional musician playing something on a shitty instrument. Likewise, a guy who is not conventionally good looking who knows how to use his body, is going to be infinitely more attractive than a conventionally good looking guy who doesn’t know how to use his body.
Its so funny, but when a guy who is not conventionally good looking knows how to use his body, facial expressions, and personality, women will talk about how physically attractive they find him.
I have seen women say this about little tiny bald guys and big fat bastards… it is really hilarious to watch.
Thundercat: Okay, so what are some of the things that guys can do with their body to make themselves more attractive?
Swinggcat: Well, in my book I get really in depth with this stuff. But something really basic that most guys have heard a thousand times, yet still needs to be reinforced, is eye contact.
This is huge.
When first approaching or interacting with a woman, maintain strong eye contact. If you have eye contact with a woman and she does something that makes you feel uncomfortable, DO NOT look away.
If you do, that conveys to her that you are scared.
YOU are reacting to HER, SHE is more worthy than YOU, and YOU are in HER reality. If you get scared… and we all get scared at times, but don’t look away. Make HER look away.
When you make her look away she is reacting to you, thus, she is in YOUR reality.
Having a strong gaze will convey to women that even the ugliest guy is the prize. When this is coupled with a warm confident smile, the effect it has on women is profound.
I personally know a very ugly dude who has only mastered these two things… and women find him very attractive as a result. Some other basic stuff that will make even “model men” unattractive are things like slouched shoulders, hands in the pockets, you know. This conveys insecurity and lack of self worth.
You gotta learn to be comfortable in your own skin, stand tall, and take up space.
Anyway, in my book I go really in depth into this and talk about some really subtle things you can do with your body language that will make women see you as being good looking, not in the conventional sense, but in the “sexy” sense. This is the kind of “good looking” that you can control. It’s the kind of “good looking” that matters.
The conventional kind doesn’t really matter.
Thundercat: So, um, you were one of the original stars of SS, right? Or at least one of the big names in it. How did you get involved in SS?
Swinggcat: Well, to start with, I had known a little bit about it from when I was in high school… I had read some of the newsletters and stuff like that.
Thundercat: On Ross’s site?
Swinggcat: On Ross’s site. Actually, how I first heard about SS is on Fox 11 News, they did this special on this guy who gave seminars on teaching men how to hypnotize women to get them into bed, and the whole idea was quite intriguing.
So I went to the web page and checked it out -- I was too cheap to splurge for the couple hundred dollar seminar, but you know, I learned some of the patterns and some of the ideas.
Initially, what made me think there was something to what he did is, I was out with a friend of mine, and a girl he really liked, and she started off liking him too. And I play this little visualization game with her where I had her imagine her ideal vacation, and her ideal romantic lover. And… long story short, by the end of it I was making out with her.
You know, so I thought there was something to his stuff, but I would never splurge for it.
And then in college, I was re-introduced to his stuff via a friend of mine, and ended up getting the home study course, and stuff like that. Ultimately, what made me get the home study course was I really was intrigued by the idea of there being a community of men that would go out and practice this stuff. Because most of the guys I knew in college, you know, very intellectual guys, kind-of balked and looked down upon the idea of going out and spending time seducing and picking up women.
And, you know, I was quite excited to get into this community and meet these people. I bought the home study course, joined Ross’s list, and met up with some of the guys.
I was really excited, I was expecting these really kind-of “GQ”-esque looking guys, you know, real “ladies men” – like, I remember I was meeting some of them at a coffee shop and I thought they’d be the life of the party, and I remember going up to some frat boys because that’s who I thought they were, saying “Oh, are you guys the brothers?” And they kind-of looked at me weird.
And then I noticed some kind-of small, disheveled looking guys with receding hairlines and the protruding guts in the corner of the coffee shop, and I just went up to them to ask them if they had seen any guys that looked like the “fun party guys.” And they’re like (in zombie voice) “Oh, brother Swinggcat.”
Swinggcat: So the thing is I started hanging out with these guys and I thought they were gonna be these “master seducers,” and you know, I had studied my patterns – the incredible connection, the fascination, love vs. attraction, and uh… let me tell you, before I go there, let me tell you about my first success using this stuff…
Swinggcat: (Laughs) We’ll return to that point. (laughs)
So my first “suck-sex” with this stuff was, um, I’d studied and learned the “incredible connection” pattern, the “fascination” pattern, the “voodoo dildo,” and I think “love vs. attraction.” And I was at a friend of mine’s house, and there was this girl there, and I started running these patterns on her. She was totally intrigued by it.
And my friend, he sort of knew what I was doing – some type of “pheromone hypnotist” thing you get on the internet, and he thought it was bullshit. But this girl was into it, she was really digging it.
My friend tried cock block me, but she was into me and he couldn’t get anywhere, so he took off, and the girl and I end up going up to a room and… well, I had run out of my four patterns! So I just kept repeating them, over and over again! (laughs)
And I was scared to make the move because, you know, I thought that if I didn’t have someone in a deep trance, I really couldn’t make a move on them, when all I needed to do was, you know, reach over and grope her.
Swinggcat: So basically, what happened was, I kept running the patterns, finally made my move on her, ended up bedding her, and I thought “Wow! There’s something to this!”
I told some of the guys that I’d met through SS and they were like “Wow, you’re the best we know at this. Because, to be honest with you, none of us have actually been able to get this stuff to work!”
Swinggcat: That’s fucked up man, don’t laugh… these guys were my idols, and it was really heart wrenching to realize that they actually stunk!
Thundercat: My heart bleeds for ya, bro.
Swinggcat: And so that was a short-lived success, I kind-of, you know, after that didn’t have much success. And then a buddy of mine introduced me to these tapes called “The Magical Connections.”
Thundercat: Oh! The Orion and Kamal videos.
Swinggcat: Ah, ah, it was… priceless like Mastercard.
So I studied the videos, I learned the handwriting spiel, and now I didn’t have to worry about walk-ups. I’d just walk up to girls and, you know, my opening line was “If I were to ask you for some of your handwriting, what might you say?”
And I’d do the handwriting analysis thing, which is basically a way of doing a cold reading. I started doing the handwriting thing, and then I would kind-of segue into these hypnotic patterns, and attempt to hypnotize them.
I had some success, got numbers like a rock star, and laid some girls using this, but I slowly started realizing that something was terribly wrong.
As soon as I would stop doing the handwriting analysis spiel, the women lost interest in me. If I didn’t lay them within the first half hour while doing the handwriting analysis, it was over.
I started to realize I was basically a monkey doing tricks. I was basically setting it up so the woman was the prize, and I was this little monkey who was jumping through hoops, hoping she would accept me. And it wasn’t the worst thing in the world, it actually got me laid. I was probably getting laid less than I was before using this, still by warhogs, um, but I did lay some hot girls using it. But I thought that the answer to all my problems was learning even more material… if I could only keep the girl intrigued and liking me by learning even more patterns and routines, I thought I would be the master.
However, in time I began to realize that not only did I not need more material, but in many cases not trying fascinate them and not trying to get incredible connections with them, and not trying to talk about love or attraction actually made them more attracted to me.
In fact, it was like the less material I did the better I became.
I started to realize that attracting women is not about doing things that make them judge you as attractive. When you try to get women to like, be fascinated, or connect with you, it defines your interaction with her as meaning that it is her who is the prize.
Thundercat: Now, let’s back up a bit, because you did kind-of become a celebrity on the SS List…
Swinggcat: Yes I did.
Thundercat: How did that happen?
Swinggcat: How that happened is, um, during the time that I was using the handwriting analysis, I did have some pretty amazing success using this hypnotic seduction. And I did start to do things that I couldn’t do before. I think a lot of us kind-of get into this stuff not just because we want to get laid more, but we want a sense of control over certain social interactions with women, and as I started using the SS, even though it wasn’t the most effective stuff in the world, it started giving me control over these interactions. Instead of haphazardly, kind-of helter-skelter going about it, I was kind-of able to direct where it was going.
As I was able to do this, I did start to have certain lays, and I started to post them to the SS list, and people started to take notice.
And the more this happened, the more I started to get into kind-of sophisticated hypnotic techniques.
I posted this thing to the SS List… that I was doing on women, and a man who was on the list by the name of Mark Cunningham, along with Tom Vizzini, flamed me. And basically, RJ came in to my defense and said that “Some of us aren’t good looking. Some of us HAVE to use techniques like this.”
Ross e-mailed me after that and was wondering what exactly I was doing, and shortly after that I met Ross in LA. And Ross met me, and I think when he first met me he was a bit surprised because I looked normal. You know, I had both eyeballs and I wasn’t missing any teeth…
Thundercat: But let’s start talking about the point where you started coming into your own, away from SS, where you got into kind-of your own model of seduction, really.
Swinggcat: So this is an interesting thing, during… oh, let’s see… in terms of timeframe I think this was 2001, that’s when I first started hanging out with Ross. And I also became quite a powerful hypnotist. I don’t consider myself on par with people like Steve Piccus, or Mike DuBay, but I’m pretty good and I can put these girls into trances.
How it started that Ross took notice of me is, when I moved down to LA from college, I had kind-of taken over the Southern California Seduction Lair. I was very active in college with the Northern California Seduction Lair, also known as the EBSS list, and so when I came down here, I gathered a bunch of guys together and we all met at 3rd street promenade in Santa Monica, and I was talking about these different seduction techniques I used.
And you know, they were a bit skeptical of what I was about, and stuff like that, because as we know there are a lot of armchair seducers within this world, a lot of people who talk big, a lot of frauds.
And I was talking about this stuff that at the time I could do somewhat consistently. I was basically talking about a form of hypnotic conditioning where within about 5 minutes of meeting the girl, I’d be fondling her breasts and making out with her.
They were very intrigued and one of the guys there, I think he goes by the handle A1FunLover, challenged me to do it on this girl walking by.
So, basically within 5 minutes of meeting her, I put her into a trance, was fondling her breasts, and making out with her. Well, what happened was, these guys, as soon as they got home, posted to the SS List: “I’d been studying this stuff all these years, and thought it was fake… but it’s real! And there’s this guy, Swinggcat, who can make out with girls within 5 minutes using these very sophisticated techniques.”
Well, within about 10 minutes of them putting this post up on the SS List, I get a private e-mail from Ross saying “Don’t post what you did, I need to meet up with you immediately.”
So we made plans to meet up, and I gotta be honest with you, I was excited to meet up with him. At that point he was kind-of a big name, you know, I’d learned all this stuff from him. I was a bit intimidated, and I didn’t want to meet up with him alone, so I flaked on him. And he wrote me this angry e-mail back, you know, accused me of being a sociopath because I flaked.
And we met up, and I sort of remember when I met up I showed up late, because that’s my trademark, I’m notoriously late. And I showed up about an hour late at Boarders, because that’s where I’m supposed to meet them, and no one was there.
I thought this was a joke, or whatever, so we walked over to Barnes and Noble, which is where the others were now waiting, and Ross gave me this dirty look. And then he put out his hand, so I put out my hand and I went to shake it. And he pulled me into him and then he spilled coffee all over me and said “Ah! You fucker! You spilled my coffee!”
And at that moment, I knew something was terribly wrong.